UI meeting 3 (20th June)

= Summary=

(by macduy)
 * Distinction between a "Questionnaire" (a form containing questions) and a "Survey" (the act of collecting data using a Questionnaire). In current LS2 implementation referred to as Survey and Assignment respectively. New intuitive terms are needed! It should be clear that a Questionnaire is a component of Survey
 * Use "invite" instead of "assign", as it sounds more friendly and less technical, less raw.
 * Participants:
 * add, delete, edit, create lists/groups
 * Invitations:
 * Quick Invite: e.g. using e-mails
 * Add previous participants, already in the system
 * Statistics/Reporting page:
 * Survey Stats (# of respondents, recent activity etc.)
 * Survey results
 * Panel features (e.g. responses from participants of age > 25 etc.) - FUTURE

=- Meeting Log=

dhardisty: hi

holch: Good morning everyone!

dhardisty: morning!

holch: Sorry for being late. But I tried to get in for the last 30 minutes.

holch: Finally figured out some way.

dhardisty: I think the time is pretty early for you and me, eh? Especially after being out late on Friday night here in NY...

dhardisty: No one has said anything until you got here

holch: I think it is worse for you.

holch: For me 9 is OK.

dhardisty: so I think it's just you and me for now

dhardisty: yeah, 8am here

holch: Is it?

dhardisty: soon I'm going to Seattle for 3 weeks

dhardisty: where it would be 5am

holch: That's OK.

holch: Oh, that is bad. Maybe we can check who will join on a regular basis and then set the timing.

dhardisty: especially if it's just you and me at the meetings =P

holch: How was the last meeting? I read through the log, but...

holch: 1st meeting was quite difficult to follow.

dhardisty: basically just introducing ourselves (Columbia)

holch: Everyone was full of ideas and they were just firing.

dhardisty: and we agreed that you were in charge ;)

holch: Which is good, but it was really hard to follow and keep controll...

holch: Look, I don't need to be in charge. I think this is a team thing.

dhardisty: at the last meeting, we agreed that the first step was to work on the "general application structure"

holch: But anyway. Let's talk business...

dhardisty: and not worry about the details of everything until after that

holch: Yes, I think this is important. We need to structure the whole thing a little bit.

holch: I thought about several navigations instead of one, as it is right now.

holch: I would take all the general admin stuff out of the main navigation and put it on a secondary navigation.

dhardisty: we basically had 4 people at the last meeting -- me, my friend Jon (also from Columbia), and two developers

dhardisty: I think that's a good idea, because admin stuff isn't used very often

holch: OK. The first time it was quite full... I can't remember how many of us were there, but the kept on coming and leaving... :-)

holch: Exactly.

holch: You don't change the general settings of your installation everyday. Nor do you add/edit users on a daily basis or change your profile...

holch: So lets take this out of the way of the normal user.

holch: What are the main features?

dhardisty: you mean, the main features of LimeSurvey2?

holch: I think there are 3 big areas, I don't know if you agree.

holch: 1. Surveys (I would call them questionnaires anyway)

holch: 2. Respondents or survey related

holch: 3. Reporting / results / statistics

holch: Anything else you could think of?

dhardisty: yeah, sounds good

holch: Because currently LS uses survey for anything.

holch: But from my point of few most time it is questionnaires they are talking about.

holch: For me a questionnaire is the List fo questions, with all filters, answer options, etc.

dhardisty: in this case, though, they may be attached to the word survey, because it is the title afterall, LimeSurvey, ;)

holch: A survey is when you send that questionnaire out to people. But I might be wrong.

dhardisty: I'll read up definitions a bit right now

holch: Well, I don't think we should skip the word survey.

holch: I just would distinguish between questionnaires and surveys.

holch: A questionnaire could be used for several surveys, a survey can have several questionnaires.

holch: I think "survey" is the real "assignment"... :-)

dhardisty: ha, nice idea!

dhardisty: here's the Oxford English dictionary definition for survey:

dhardisty: A systematic collection and analysis of data relating to the attitudes, living conditions, opinions, etc., of a population, usu. taken from a representative sample of the latter; freq. = POLL n.1 7d. Also preceded by a defining word, as (public) opinion survey, social survey:''' see under the first element.

holch: Well, I think this definition is a little "narrow minded", but it sums it up, more or less...

dhardisty: I don't know if it will fit with what LS2 normally does, but the questionnaire & survey breakdown you proposed would fit what we do (in our research at Columbia) very well

dhardisty: we do different surveys

dhardisty: and each survey is composed of several questionnaires

dhardisty: one might be a demographic questionnaire

holch: It would fit with what I do as well.

dhardisty: and we might use this same demographic questionnaire in each survey

holch: Right. That is what I am talking about.

holch: A questionnaire turns (more or less) into a survey, once you "assign" respondents to it.

dhardisty: So, at least in the way that we use LimeSurvey, I support your breakdown and terminology 100% :)

holch: You can use the questionnaire over time, for waves of a survey too.

holch: While the survey itself is changing (e.g different respondents, or different time), the questionnaire might be reused for comparability.

holch: So if we would split this up, what would we need in "Questionnaires"?

dhardisty: 1. Create new questionnaire

holch: Create/edit/delete

dhardisty: 2. Edit questionnaire

dhardisty: yes

holch: OK. An overview of the questionnaires would be nice.

holch: The survey thingy is a little bit more difficult to grab.

dhardisty: Maybe we call the section "survey respondents"

dhardisty: and in this section we put "token" management as well as "assignments"

dhardisty: (but with better names)

holch: Would be an option.

holch: I am not sure if the LS team will be too happy with it. As you said, they use survey for years now. If we take the survey too much out of it... ;-)

holch: So what would be in this section?

dhardisty: yes, especially because we are the upstart newcomers ;)

holch: 1. Overview of surveys / active surveys / own surveys

holch: Exactly.

dhardisty: 2. Invite people to surveys

holch: I am not sure if it is good to suggest such an "extreme" step.

holch: I like "invite" a lot more than "assign".

dhardisty: yes, me too

holch: Inviting is what we are doing, not assigning.

holch: Soons like the respondents are obligated...

dhardisty: like it is a homework assignment or something

holch: This would lead me to a 4 steps approach:''' Questionnaires, Surveys, Respondents, Reporting

dhardisty: 3. Monitor survey invitations (?)

holch: This is an important one!

dhardisty: yes, to see the response rate, etc -- but maybe this goes in reporting

dhardisty: or maybe both

dhardisty: anyway, I think the 4 categories sound good

holch: No, I think response rates are not reporting.

'''You are now known as Mazi

holch: Or at least they should also be connected to the surveys.

holch: Hi Mazi.

dhardisty: hello!

Mazi: Hi @all

dhardisty: it's just us three -- nice to have a dev here!

holch: Or better:''' High you 2... :-)

Mazi: just reading up the log...

holch: OK.

Mazi: ...a short note about survey vs questionnaire:''' this might become difficult for suppoort because user might ahve problem to idfferentiate...

dhardisty: we UI people are running amok and changing everything ;)

Mazi: if we have a wokrflow not showing survey AND questionaire at one screen this will be fine.

Mazi: the app has to guide the user

Mazi: so he doesn't wonder about the word survey/questionnaire

holch: Mazi:''' actually I think users differentiate, but old LS users might be confused at the beginning.

holch: But we would be really consequent, I agree.

Mazi: I also agree to rename assignements to invitations

holch: I am aware that this might be difficult.

holch: But I would give it a try in a small test.

Mazi: holch, there might be problems when having two terms.

holch: Well, you need 2 terms, because it is 2 different things.

Mazi: right now I can't think of two suitable translations in German. what about other languages which might only use one word for this

Mazi: might raise problems

holch: Maybe we need to rethink the survey vs. questionnaire wording.

Mazi: just my 2 cents

holch: Fragebogen, Umfrage

dhardisty: Maybe then we have "surveys" and "survey components" or soemthing like that? So that one term is obviously a subcomponent of the other

Mazi: k, this fits. not sure about other languages though

dhardisty: I don't have the best solution, but ideally the words should clearly demonstrate the relationship between the concepts

Mazi: components might be a good approach

holch: Questionario, encuesta

holch: questionario, pesquisa (PT)

Mazi: holch, what do you think about the "components" suggestion? It also makes clear how these parts are depending on each other

holch: Hmm, first problem:''' I don't really know what the survey and what the survey components are?

holch: Again, a survey is the whole project.

dhardisty: basically, "survey component" = "questionnaire"

Mazi: would be nice to have some more input on this, El-Matador-69, dqminh, what do you think?

Mazi: dhardisty, I agree

holch: Hmmm, to be honest, for me it would be clearer to have survey vs. questionnaire. because everyone should know what a questionnaire is. If the would use survey synonimous, then at that point the would have to think for a second.

dhardisty: they haven't said anything since I got here an hour ago, so you may be waiting awhile for their response ;)

holch: But it should be clear soon, what is the difference between a survey and a questionnaire.

holch: my 2 cents.

Mazi: holch, I also agree to your arguments. as long as we don't have survey and quest. in the same menu/navigation element it will be fine

holch: But at least we agree, that we have to separate the "project" (survey) from the "questionnaire" (or survey component)...

Mazi: as said, the workflow has to be clear to the user like creating a survey first and then adding survey components/questionnaires

holch: Actually I think it will only work if the ARE in the same navigation.

holch: Because people who did not distinguish between the two aspects, would have notice that there must be a difference obviously.

Mazi: holch, I'm very interested in c_schmitz and jasebos (LS2 head developers) opinions about this differentiation.

holch: If you use it on different levels, mixing the two, then we will be in real trouble.

Mazi: we also have to take a look at this from the developers view

holch: Mazi:''' me too. ;-)

holch: And I am totally aware that it might be difficult to convince them. But I would try.

Mazi: to see in what extend such a separation is posible at all or if the core engine has to be rewritten for this

holch: But I would also like to hear comments from less experienced people with LS. Because at the end it is them using it. The hardcore user will get used to anything anyway.

Mazi: holch, can you send an email to the mailing list about this to a) ask for other opinions and b) ask c_schmitz/jasbo about it?

holch: And let me get this straight:''' I am not here to change everything. I would if it makes sense and the others agree, but I don't to cause trouble in the team.

dhardisty: as I mentioned last week, I can get the reactions of many naive users here

Mazi: holch, I totally understand

Mazi: dhardisty, that would be great. other opinions are always helpful

holch: Mazi, I will try to note all that down, what we were talking today, try to make a little "concept" and send it around, asking for opinions.

Mazi: thanks, holch!

dhardisty: yeah, thanks!

Mazi: and sorry for interrupting your discusion

holch: It might cause a little controversy, but that is OK, I think. Because it would make everyone think.

dhardisty: haha, not at all!

dhardisty: it is much better to have a dev here

dhardisty: so no interruption at all

holch: Mazi, by the way, thank you for the email with your view of LS.

Mazi: no problem

holch: You were one of 2. ;-)

Mazi: 2? that sucks.

holch: Well, its OK.

Mazi: but there has already been an email to the list about this, right?

Mazi: ...aksing for feedback

holch: Answers in general were very "LS" anyway. Yes there has been an email, I think.

holch: But anyway. I think I will change strategy.

holch: I will think about an alternative concept, I will propose it and THIS will create responses for sure... :-)

Mazi: holch, I will send another email to the list, asking for feedback to be forwarded to you

holch: No, Mazi, I think it is OK.

Mazi: 2 responses from my point of view are not enough, but you know better

Mazi: with some pushng it might be easy to get more feedback

holch: I think once I have send that concept, it is easier for everyone to participate. My first request was probably too "abstract", because I wanted you guys to go back to the basics and think out of the box. Didn't really work as expected, so we will try it an other way.

Mazi: I agree.

holch: I think once there is a list of areas and actions it will be easier for them to start the feedback.

Mazi: definately

holch: And if it is critizing my concepts, that is fine.

Mazi: ;-)

Mazi: so let's continue with the next topic if this can be considered as "done"

holch: At least they think about it and have to search for alternatives.

holch: Yes.

holch: So, what about the area "respondents"?

holch: add new respondents

holch: create a list of respondents

Mazi: the second meaning of "assignments" :-)

holch: Exactly.

holch: But isn't it clearer?

holch:  I think everyone will understand it.

dhardisty: yes

Mazi: I vote for "participants"

holch: participants is good.

Mazi: even more clearer from my point of view

holch: Better than respondents.

dhardisty: sure, participants is great for us

Mazi: fine

dhardisty: because in psychology research we call them participants all the time

holch: Not 100% exact either, but closer than respondents.

Mazi: is there anything in detail that has to be discussed about "participants"?

holch: Probably "invites" would be probably more exact, but anyway.

Mazi: from my point of view this should be the next step after having created the first survey using the wizzard. to create a list of participants or set the survey to open acces

holch: Hmm, no, I think participants/respondents/invites would be quite straight forward:

holch: But wasn't it agreed that the wizard will come only later?

dhardisty: we could have participants within the invitations section

holch: In this case I would try to make the general structure as good as possible and then think about wether we need a wizard anyway.

holch: If the structure is straight forward, a wizard would probably counterproductive anyway.

dhardisty: so we have four sections on the top level (?):''' questionnaires/survey-components, surveys, invitations, and results

holch: I think priority one is, to make a logical structure which 95% of the users will undersand immediately or without major problems,.

dhardisty: and participants (making groups of them, etc) goes within the invitations section

dhardisty: (?)

dhardisty: yes holch -- I agree that we should worry about the basic structure first

holch: Hmmm, yes, it would me more or less like this.

dhardisty: and don't think about the wizard until afterwords

dhardisty: once we have the basic design in place, then we can consider whether or not to use a wizard

holch: And there would be a secondary navigation, where the whole general administration and user admin would be.

dhardisty: right

holch: So in the invitation section, what would we need?

holch: I think this is the most difficult section.

holch: Because my respondent section would have been simple, and the survey section more complicated. By naming it invitation there would be moved some stuff from the survey section to invitation.

dhardisty: right

holch: Participants:''' add, delete, edit participants / create lists, groups of participants

dhardisty: So in the invitation section, you have:

dhardisty: yes

dhardisty: plus also create / track invitations

holch: OK.

dhardisty: so you think that create and track invitations should go in with surveys?

Mazi: holch, LS2 is designed to have a real panel system, much better than the token stuff in LS1

Mazi: this should be kept in mind for the invitation part

holch: Hmm, either that, or have an own section. Don't know if this makes it more complicated.

holch: But if we have a "participants" section, we would also have a little "panel software" already.

holch: This could become quite huge in the future.

Mazi: I'm also thinking about the possibility of assigning people depening on their user data like "only user older than 25, only males"...

holch: With a lot of features...

Mazi: ...but that's future stuff

holch: Exactly. That would be a panel

holch: You are right. But a basic panel function would be needed from the beginning. Of course without all the segmentation stuff, but at least a list of participants and the possibility to group them.

Mazi: sure

Mazi: I'm not sure if it's useful to already discuss layout details right now. I always like having 2-3 designs and discuss details based on this. what do you think?

holch: But if we could keep this quite separated from the beginning, I think it would be easier to implement the more advanced panel functions later.

Mazi: It's a pity that macduy isn't with us today...

holch: It's OK. I think we made a bigger step ahead today then the first time.

Mazi: I think it might be useful to have two parts:''' 1. add participants together with their data and 2. have a screen to assign people to surveys

holch: Mazi, I don't get this one...

Mazi: 2. should be kept simple so that user who only run one survey can easily assign all availabpe participants to a survey at once with one click

dhardisty: I think he is proposing that we split "participants" and "invitations" into separate sections

Mazi: exactly

holch: Definetly.

Mazi: first screen to get the panel data, second screen to assign people to survys

Mazi: fine

dhardisty: that's fine with me -- it is a logical separation

holch: I would also not require to add every participant necessarily to the general list of participants.

Mazi: ? please explain?

holch: While this might be very interesting for many surveys, sometimes you have a list of people that you know you won't use again. So just upload an CSV and thats it.

dhardisty: or better yet:''' copy and paste their emails into a text box

holch: Then for others it might be interesting to have them in your list of participants for future surveys --> add them to the panel.

dhardisty: making a csv file is hard for some people

Mazi: I see. there have to be functions to easily group participants and delete / add groups and assign them

holch: OK, copy and paste is fine, uploading an excel sheet is OK, adding one by one...

Mazi: dhardisty, I like the import by adding a simpel list of emaila dresses

holch: But honestly, I would either put the invitation process in the survey section, or I would have an extra section for the invitations.

Mazi: why?

dhardisty: I think maybe what holch means is this:''' when you go to invitations, you have two options. One is a "quick invite" where you just put in email addresses. The other is where you select participants (or groups of participants) that you have previously entered in the participants section

holch: Because the invitation has usually to do with the survey.

Mazi: holch, that's the problem:''' to offer both, panel functionalty AND easy to use interface for one time users

holch: I would like to have a simple area where you just take care of the details of your participants.

Mazi: dhardisty, yet another great idea :-)

holch: Then you can select the ones you want to have in the survey and create a "group" or "list", you name it.

dhardisty: not my idea, but thanks ;)

holch: Then from the survey section you can either choose one of those groups or just paste the emails.

Mazi: yeah, this will get tricky when talking about the details later, holch

Mazi: has to be put into the workflow "somehow"

holch: I think it is quite easy to put in the work flow.

Mazi: I think we need some forking at that point

holch: You create a survey, add a questionnaire to the survey, add participants to the survey.

holch: You can either decide to create a new questionnaire, or use an existing one.

holch: Or you can add new participants for this survey, or add new ones.

holch: And there are surveys, where you just have a link, and don't need to send invitations to specific users.

holch: So there you are flexible.

Mazi: holch, are you familiar with creating workflow diagrams?

Mazi: would be great to see this on paper

Mazi: makes it easier to share with others and to discuss details

holch: Mazi, I had started this last saturday, to bring my thoughts down on paper, but couldn't finish. I will try to come up with something this week so we can discuss it next saturday.

Mazi: that would be great!

holch: Not last, but the one before.

holch: Of course.

holch: What about reporting, statistics, results section?

Mazi: we also need someone to sum up this meeting at the wiki. macduy did this before, maybe he can do so again.

Mazi: that's important for other user who didn't participate so the knwo what we have come up to

Mazi: I will create the according wiki pages so holch can add the workflow ther

holch: Well, I can write a short sum up, because we can't go into the details anyway.

Mazi: would be great

dhardisty: so, in this section, we have:''' view results, export results, compare results (?)

dhardisty: what else?

dhardisty: maybe compare is too much

Mazi: agree, let's leave out compare

Mazi: can we call this "survey statistics" in general

Mazi: dqminh, that's your part!

dhardisty: sure, but then what is the difference between view results and "survey statistics"?

holch: Well, to be honest, I don't like statistics.

Mazi: we can have a different wording

dhardisty: maybe one is browsing individual responses, and the other is summary stats?

dhardisty: I'm not arguing the wording -- I don't even know the concepts yet

holch: Because there are the survey statistics (invitations, started interviews, finished interviews, etc.) and then the actual results of the survey.

dhardisty: of what you have planned

dqminh: statistics will include simple overview of the survey results:''' like % completed, number of people taken the survey, result's diagram for each question.

Mazi: dhardisty, dqminh is working on the statistics part to show results of a survey

dqminh: result is more like exporting the whole result into a file.

holch: Compare results, what do you refere to with that?

dhardisty: I think it is probably too complicated, but I was thinking if you have different groups of participants you want to compare

dhardisty: or different surveys to compare

dhardisty: like for pre and post test

dhardisty: or maybe compare men and women

dhardisty: but I think that is too much

holch: This would be a very advanced killer feature.

holch: Even many big ones don't offer this.

dhardisty: those of us who need to do that can do it in a statistics package

dhardisty: maybe we just put this on a wish list for "some day"

dhardisty: and when LS2 is super popular and gets lots of funding, then we add it ;)

holch: But if we could get an advanced tabulation feature one day, LS would be getting so much more users.

dqminh: possible ;) I logged it already :D

holch: Thats fine. We need to note this ideas down.

holch: Even if they are not for now.

Mazi: holch, what do you mean by "tabulation feature"? a kind of filter like "only show results of people who answered Q2=male"?

holch: So we will put the following into "results/statistics/reporting":

holch: Well, cross tabs would be the term I was thinking of.

holch: Having a table showing total results, and results for special groups side by side.

Mazi: let's put this on dqminh's list (if it's not already listed)

holch: Eg. Overall satisfaction:''' First column = all respondents, second column = male, 3rd column = female, 4th column = 15-20 year olds, etc.

dqminh: Mazi, I havent thought about that before. However we did have the group concept already.

Mazi: holch, this will be quite complicated to implement. lt's only put it on the list for later and see to what extend the group feature can cover this

Mazi: It's = let's

holch: I know. That was just thinking about future...

Mazi: fine

Mazi: let's continue with "So we will put the following into "results/statistics/reporting":"

holch: "survey statistics" like invitations send, interviews started, interviews finished, abortion statistics, etc.

holch: "survey results":''' tables, graphs for each question, later maybe advanded cross tabluation features (what we had discussed right now)

dhardisty: and "export results"

holch: "export results/data/answers". I would make this also accessible from the survey section.

holch: Something else, maybe you can help me...

dhardisty: "export" is a familiar term for all of us, but maybe we should call it "download" instead? that might be better for brand new users

dhardisty: "download results"? Or is export common and understandable enough for new people? Maybe it's fine

holch: I am looking for a good wording for "user administration" with in the general LS administration section. I wouldn't want to have another "admin" within the admin.

dhardisty: I'm just brainstorming here

holch: Download sounds good.

holch: but export isn't that bad either...

dqminh: export is more familiar with users I guess. Excel and OO both use Export ...

holch: We will see.

Mazi: I vote for export because this is the term used in LS1

holch: This is a good one for actual normal users.

dhardisty: ok, sounds good

dhardisty: so back to what we call the "user admin":

holch: Well, first you export the data you want, then you download the file.

dhardisty: (including settings, permissions...)

holch: This is how it works in Globalpark.

holch: Because it gives you some flexibility.

Mazi: about "user admin":''' the wording should always clearly differentiate between "participant" and "user" which might be another admin with less rights

holch: In the export part, you decide what you want to select, which responses (all, only the complete ones), the whole survey or only some answers, etc.

Mazi: when having a "user xxx" menu entry it always has to be clear what is meant by this

holch: Mazi, I totally agree.

holch: But for me it is quite clear. User=person using LS. Participant/respondent = person giving responses to a survey.

Mazi: is there another term for "user" = person with LS admin rights?

holch: Hmm, Limesurfer...

Mazi: lol

holch: :-)

Mazi: Limenist

Mazi: Limemenist

Mazi: Limer

holch: Participants only have contact with LS via the questionnaire. The usually don't even know what LS is.

Mazi: I vote for "limer" ;-)

holch: I would stick with "user" vs. "participant"

Mazi: fie with me

Mazi: *fine

El-Matador-691 has disconnected: Read error:''' 110 (Connection timed out)

dhardisty: I agree

holch: As we will put the admin in a different navigation, we should not run into trouble.

Mazi: looks promising

Mazi: any other topic for today?

holch: User can be and admin, a normal user (can only do certain things) or a "client" who can only see results.

holch: But this would be something for the rights management.

Mazi: yeah

Mazi: dqminh, what time is it at your location?

dhardisty: so you are suggesting two separate admins? survey admin and user admin?

holch: No, I don't think so.

holch: Should be 10:10.

Mazi: am/pm?

dqminh: Mazi, 10:10 pm

holch: Here it is 11:10.

holch: 10:10 am...

Mazi: we can think about starting the next UI meeting an hour later

holch: Ahhhh, I thought you were talking about dhardisty.

Mazi: should be fine for most people?!

holch: For me this would be OK.

dhardisty: it is 10:11am here

dhardisty: soon I will be in Seattle for 3 weeks

dhardisty: 3 hours earlier there

holch: I think dhardisty would be more than happy about 1 more hour.

dqminh: fine for me ;)

dhardisty: but next week I will be at a bachelor party

holch: OK.

dhardisty: so I think I will have to miss next week, sorry

dhardisty: I'll be in a hotel

Mazi: 10 am is quite early for lazy PH.D. students

dhardisty: probably with a big hangover from the previous night

holch: That is fine. We all have our lifes...

dhardisty: plus the normal noon time is 5am there

dhardisty: haha, yes

dhardisty: I do my best work at night, so I normally stay up quite late. Also, by the way, my friend Jon will be at the UI meetings sometimes

dhardisty: we plan to "tag team"

dhardisty: so he will come to the next meeting instead of me

Mazi: sound cool.

holch: dhardisty, I will try to send you a document during this week, so you can give your feedback and it can be discussed next time.

dhardisty: ok, great

Mazi: I will send an email to the mailing list and update the wiki

Mazi: ..about the new schedule

Mazi: holch, I will also tell macduy to create a new wiki page for todays wiki where you can upload files

holch: Mazi, if I can make it and have dhardistys feedback, I will contact you to send the document around, so we can discuss it next saturday, OK?

holch: OK, uploading is even better.

Mazi: holch, uploading and email to the mailing list is best

holch: Can I save this chat somehow?

Mazi: I will add the logs to the wiki as soon as the page is set up and I can also email it to you

dhardisty: copy and paste ;)

holch: Na, I am able to copy and paste... hhehhehehe

holch: OK, does this mean we are through?

Mazi: fine. any other tasks to be allocated?